A muslim by the name of Abdulmalik attempted to refute my post Islam in Wonderland. Below is our exchange on Facebook. Unfortunately, he blocked me before I could reply his last message.
Abdulmalik: I have read your thoughts about islam in wonderland. I must say their is no myth and fairly tales in the koran, neither is there is any contradiction. What you refuse to to acknowledge is the deep meaning of what each of the verse represent…surah 6:14 “Say: shall i take as a guardian any other than Allah, the creator of the heavens and the earth and it is He who feed but is not fed. Say: verily, i am commanded to be the first of those who submit. And be not you of the idolators.” Q6vs14…What it means is that, at that very moment in time he was the first to believe in the revelation and submit to Allah. Same thing apply to Q6vs163. It does not mean that he was the first mankind to submit to Allah…
Q7vs143 [says:] “And when Moses came at our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord!! show me (thyself), so that i may look upon thee. He said: you cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remain firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the moutain He made it crumble and Moses fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to thee, i turn to thee, and i am the first of the believers.” In this verse which you refuse to quote is what transpire between Moses (may peace be upon him) and God when he went to recieve the criterion. He ask to see the Lord, but was told will not be able to see the Lord in this world, when God manifested his glory the mountain crumble, and Moses exclaimed that he was the first to believe.
Islam means that one submit ones self to the creator, with associating partners in any form to Allah. A muslim is then iis someone who submit his/herseld to Allah, with assciating partner to Him. All thos who you mention that claim to believw in one God, then compare their doctrine of one God to the following simple quote fron quran. “Say: He, God is one. God is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is like unto him” Q112 vs 1-4.
Then compare The believes of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, solomon, Moses, Jesus (peace and bleasing of God be upon them to those verse if it contradicts, and sirely you will find no contradiction with these pious servants of God…What then Mohammad (peace he upon him) did about qibla, when to fast, how to pray etc is to standardise the practices of muslims and perfect the religion of God…What you succeeded in doing is to lie and decieve, that is why you do not quote fully from your source. I hope you upload my response on [your] blog.
Victor: I got your messages reading my mind (that I spend my time devising ways on how to “lie and deceive people”, thats why I don’t quote fully from my sources. Thanks!) You must be the “champion scholar” bold enough to burst all my “lies”. So thanks once again.
My point in sura 6:14 was that Muhammad admitted he was the first muslim (“I am the first Moslem“). We have no problems with that. Every historian agrees with it so I accept it. First means first in my language. Even if you say he was the first to “believe in the revelation and submit to Allah” I may not argue with you. The islamic worldview says everybody was busy worshipping idols, but one day an “angel” squeezed an Arab man in a cave, then suddenly he started continuing the religion of Abraham – a man who had died over 1,500 years before him, and that was a man who never even lived in Mecca! Such funny myths.
The problem started when Muhammad began to contradict himself by claiming Moses also said he is the “first of the believers/muslim.” So which is it? Was Muhammad the first muslim or not? How can there be two firsts? That was my point in the post, yet you toe-danced it away. If you are familiar with your book, you would have known that some Egyptians became muslims too (26:51), so which is it? Is Moses still “the first to believe?”
You said Islam means to submit oneself to the creator, and that all those people in the Bible believed in one God. I already refuted this lame definition. Every religionist submits to a god. Sikhs submit to one God, are they muslims? Jews submit to one God, are they muslims? Satanists submit to one god, are they muslims too? That someone believe in one God doesn’t make one a muslim. Its a shame you ignored this fact in my post. You are a poor advocate if you keep repeating a point that has been refuted. Besides, you have not yet proven to me that the god of Islam is the Creator. That is blind belief. Prove this then we can discuss further.
You spoke about the “beliefs of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Solomon, Moses and Jesus” Where did you get their beliefs from? Where are their “islamic books?” All their words in the quran are plain forgeries from Muhammad’s lips. Islam didn’t exist before him. Anybody who says otherwise is swimming in a myth. ONLY you muslims believe your religion pre-dates Muhammad. Wake up from this delusion and join the thinking humanity. Only the Bible contains the real facts about these men and its not islam. I could care less about a jumbled mass of confused Arabic writings from a warlord. You speak so much about logic, yet on this point, you abandon logic and cling to the redactions of a 7th century Arabian liar.
I have defined what a muslim is: one who adheres to the 5 pillars of Islam. None of the people before Muhammad knew of, let alone followed the 5 pillars, so if you tell me they are muslims, you are just rehashing your myths (tales) and if you persist in that nonesense, I will ignore your points. Why should I embrace islamic myths and not Greek or Aztec myths?
You said Muhammad came to “standardize and perfect” the religion of God. What a joke. That means for more than 4,000 years, this “religion of God” had no standard and no one to perfect it. So the hands of Allah were tied until the 7th century when Messiah-Muhammad came along. I repeat, I will not accept such myths. If it suits you, that’s cool, but don’t dare call it the truth. Until you prove all the above, you are just whistling in the dark.
Abdul malik: Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the first to submit to the oneness of God when the revelation was revealed to him. He was the first at that time to beliece in it, that is why he was able to call others to it. Likewise Moses, for he was the first to believe at that moment, before he travel to Egypt to warn Pharoah and his people… They did not claim to be the first mankind to submit…Yes, [Islam] means submition to the creator. That is why i gave a basic description of what oneness of God is Q112vs1-4. I ask you to compare those who you called to helieve in one God if there concept of obe God is as it was stated in those verses. All those which you mentioned have an image of God, and God said in Q112vs4 that “there is none like Him”…when you said and angel squeezed him into a cave to give him a message. Where did God spoke to Moses? Did he squeeze him to that place? Where did angel met Mary to give her glad tidiings of a pious son? Did he squeeze into that place?…You said Abraham never stayed or live in mecca? You only confirmed that you are just bent on decieving people, who then built the this blavk stone you refer to?
Victor: I have said I will only continue this exchange if you are forthright in answering my questions. If you ignore my questions after this, I will terminate futher correspondence with you because I prioritize my time.
I will allow the issue of the “first muslim” contradiction to rest, since you cant address it. You talked about Muhammad’s submission to one God, yet you refuse to answer a simple question, which God did he submit to? Wasnt Allah one of the many pagan gods of Mecca? Where is the proof that the deity Muhammad submitted to is the Creator? Or are you telling me that Allah is equivalent to the chief deity of any pagan culture? If thats true, then Allah is equivalent to Shiva, Baal, Jupiter or Osiris. Anyone can submit to just one pagan god and then become a muslim right?
That is why your argument fails. You are concluding what you are yet to prove. You have accepted through blind belief that Allah MUST be the creator and you are trying to force your assertions on me. Sorry, it won’t work. Muhammad’s father was Abdul-Allah (servant of Allah), his uncle was ObeidAllah. They were a bunch of Allah worshippers, yet they were not muslims but pagans. Allah was simply a pagan deity straight out of Arabian paganism. Read this
Since islam didn’t exist before Muhammad, whatever “image” he had about Allah (whether physical or mental) came from somewhere. You can’t tell me that a 40 year old pagan all of a sudden received a “new image revelation” about the same deity worshipped by his fathers. This is why I find your quote from sura 112:4 “there is none like him” amusing. Your Allah appeared to Muhammad physically (53:1-10), Allah has a face (55:26-27), a hand (48:10), an eye (20:36-39), a shin (68:42), and he even forgets (2:37) etc So how can you say “there is nothing like him?” Read this
It seems you havent read the Sirat Rasulallah where it was recorded:
“…Gabriel brought him the command of God. ‘He came to me’ said the Apostle of God, ‘while I was asleep, with a coverlet of brocade whereon was some writing, and said, ‘Read!’ I said what shall I read? He pressed me with it so tightly that I thought it was death, then he let me go and said, ‘Read!’ I said ‘What shall I read?’ He pressed me with it again so that I thought it was death…He pressed me with it the third time…” (Ibn Ishaq, transl. A Guilaume, 106) How many people in the Bible were squeezed and forced by an angel of God? None! Only demons act like that. Yet on the basis of your own ignorance, you question the veracity of the experience of your guru. Keep it up!
As for the issue of hajj, Abraham, Mecca, Adam or Noah, I wont talk about them again. You are incapable of breaking free from your lalaland. Since all your claims are based on just one fairy tale book- the Quran, you have no historical backing. I’ve told you you are free to rehash your myths as much as you like, but dont present them to me since I wont buy them.
Abdul Malik:…If you claim islam have spread all those things you mentioned, why do people of different background accept this your so called “lies”, “myth”, “forgeries” etc, its because they see through all media lies that it portray in islam…I have done that critical analysis my friend, about moon-god, warlord, polytheist, pagan, i have read all those, but they always get it wrong like you. Apply the logic then my friend to what you believe.
Victor: You asked why islam has spread among many people of different backgrounds if its false, I’ll tell you why:
1. Lies are spiritual. Satan is the “father of lies” and he is the brain behind all false religions. Once he breathes into a lie, it lives on and spreads. That is why religions founded on pure myths are still alive and kicking. They serve the devil’s purposes to enslave mankind.
2. Islam is not learnt naturally, it has to be imposed by brainwashing. From young ages, islam is drilled into people by hammering the same ideas into their heads over and over again, and censoring any criticism of islam. This is why islamic nations ban the Bible and Christian materials. A lie that is often repeated often becomes “true” to those who refuse to think.
3. Islam appeals to the fallen human nature. It gives a false outward impression of humility and loyalty, whereas it approves of the worst vices inherent in man. It approves of hate, war, adultery, charms, lying, looting, rape and paedophilia. And it promises a carnal heaven and an afterlife debauchery that would appeal to criminals.
I’m sorry you are incapable of doing any critical analysis of islamic beliefs. You are a “submitter.” You may criticize other belief systems, but when it comes to islam, you become a limp noodle.
This is called a blind spot, just like a fish who doesn’t know its in water. You still don’t know the nature and extent of deception into which you have fallen.
Bring your critical mind to work, how about you address the pagan origins of islam and its terrorism here/ here/.
Ignorance can be very deadly. I simply hope your “applied logic” helps you to find truth in Jesus Christ.